Curse

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

My partner and I have noticed that it is functionally impossible to single-pull many monsters in the world, and think certain ones (Flash and Shatter Gargoyles and their Devourer buddies) may be bugged.

From what we see, each Gargoyle 'patrols' a certain area and, within that area, are a certain number of buried devourers.

If you manage to pull that gargoyle while being outside the territory he patrols (i.e., as he comes to one side/edge), you still see every buried devourer in his territory dig up from the sand and run to you.

This makes no sense at all in the scheme of 'realism' in the game, and no sense from a mechanics perspective, either. If I manage through thought and patience, to get one of these gargoyles off to the side and kill them, why on earth would it alert (let along aggro) everything in its territory? Especially as these gargoyles are Mesmers or Elementalists, neither of whom have pets.

What I think is happening is there is a (faulty) assumption in play that you must walk through the mob's territory to grab them to kill, and thus, you would naturally aggro everything under the ground.

Either this, or AreaNet/Development has linked the mobs for simplicity and mechanics and believability be damned (no offense).

My partner is a ranger, and the death of the art of the 'pull' in MMO games is one of his sore points. It has become one of mine both from a desire not to hear him upset (grin) as well as an understanding that there is a LOT of satisfaction in being able to surgically extract one mob from a pocket of many (pride in ability, avoidance of trained death from hell, etc.).

What do you think, and do you know of other mobs with this behavior? Also, what are you thoughts on the death of 'pulling' as a tactic in these games?

Aug · May 27, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

"Pulling" is simplistically easy. Developers have realized this, and have begun "linking" mobs to ensure the difficulty of every encounter is appropriate to the zone.

And it does make sense from a believability stand-point. Why couldn't those Mergoyles or Devourers let our warning sounds/smells that are detectable from a relatively long distance? Humans do it all the time, as do other animals and insects... why is it so unbelievable that a virtual construct of a living entity should be able to do the same?

The mobs are patrolling to prevent you from slipping past them without fighting them. And they're linked to prevent you from only having to fight one at a time. If the 2 mechanics weren't there, the game would be ridiculously easy (you'd never have to fight, or you'd only be fighting one mob at a time), or irritatingly difficult (you'd never know what the aggro radius of any group of mobs was, as it'd just be linked to a location on the terrain).

Just accept the fact that the developers want you to fight specific sets of monsters, and not one at a time. This isn't a traditional MMORPG, where you have to find other humans to play with... if you need some more help to fight those sets of monsters, grab some henchmen. They're actually quite good.

Auntie I · May 27, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

You might want to consider that those monsters are part of a "group". The group can include the devourers. When you attack one member of a group the rest of the group will attack. They will come from wherever on the map they have wandered to, including below ground.

DrSLUGFly · May 27, 2005, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I suspect something that happens sometimes (especially with Mergoyles) is that the Mobs are all linked and call out to each other. I've noticed in places that if you try to pull a Mergoyle all the others within map distance (the compass map) will come running.

As for the devourers, I wouldn't call it a bug but perhaps an oversight.

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

I assumed there was a 'BAF' happening, just noting that the 'BAF' ruleset seems to allow adds from much further away than reality would permit.

Thanks, DrSLUGFly. You actually understood what I was talking about and didn't infer things I didn't write.

Sting · May 27, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Yeah they are all linked and in someways I understand it. Me being a Ranger I got yelled at alot when the game first came out for pulling all the mobs in the area instead of the 1 untill it became clear they were linked together LOL. From a realism point of veiw it makes sence especially the "Intelegent Mobs" that can call and insects such as Bee's and Ants attack as a group. But on the other hand it makes the Ranger class even more irrelevant (as it needed that already LOL) as being the long thought of "pullers" from most other games.

As for your ranger friend tell him to get used to being thought of as useless, because rangers are considered a bottom rung class in this game (percieved or actual can be debated but that is the concensus of the majority of players).

chalt2 · May 27, 2005, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Also remember that the Game, missions and Explorable Areas are designed for "groups" thats why in pre-sear you could pair up in post up to Yaks Bend your party is 4 from Yaks to Lions Arch its 6 and so on. So if you have been walking around Ascalon city the "Mobs" are geared towards facing groups of 4.

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting

Yeah they are all linked and in someways I understand it. Me being a Ranger I got yelled at alot when the game first came out for pulling all the mobs in the area instead of the 1 untill it became clear they were linked together LOL. From a realism point of veiw it makes sence especially the "Intelegent Mobs" that can call and insects such as Bee's and Ants attack as a group. But on the other hand it makes the Ranger class even more irrelevant (as it needed that already LOL) as being the long thought of "pullers" from most other games.

As for your ranger friend tell him to get used to being thought of as useless, because rangers are considered a bottom rung class in this game (percieved or actual can be debated but that is the concensus of the majority of players).

He's never useless to me.

We generally duo or run with the henchies (we're fairly straightforward PvE).

As to the rest, in some cases, I see this linking as an over-simplification or means to avoid having to write more elegant code. I dislike that someone can say 'you will fight ten monsters here' as it completely eliminates the question of tactical skill and in choosing what you fight.

More and more MMOs are doing this, and I'm liking it less and less in each. You may as well slap your customers in the face and say, 'Stop being creative and just do it the way we want you to!' Bah.

Aug · May 27, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Pulling is not creative. It is easy, and trivializes encounters.

This game has a LOT of lattitude of movement in terms of creativity. There are HUNDREDS of skills to be mixed and matched. That is the realm in which the developers want you to be creative in. Not doing the same old "pulling" thing every other MMORPG from the beginning of time has done.

What would be a more 'elegant' solution to linking, to achieve the same results? The developers want a specific difficulty level. Pulling does not yield that difficulty level. Linking does.

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Pulling is not creative. It is easy, and trivializes encounters.

This game has a LOT of lattitude of movement in terms of creativity. There are HUNDREDS of skills to be mixed and matched. That is the realm in which the developers want you to be creative in. Not doing the same old "pulling" thing every other MMORPG from the beginning of time has done.

What would be a more 'elegant' solution to linking, to achieve the same results? The developers want a specific difficulty level. Pulling does not yield that difficulty level. Linking does.

I understand this is your opinion. I also understand from what you've said that you have no idea what I am taking about... which is ok, really.

Burem · May 27, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

I fail to see how pulling is creative. The developers are actually encouraging players to think harder. How much thought goes into a fight with one puny mob? Add another 9 and things get interesting. Linking mobs isn't dumbing down the game; It's moving the right direction. On top of all that it's realistic that a sentient creature could ask its "friends" for help.

I think you're mistaking creativity for triviality.

smitty-gw · May 27, 2005, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I have seem mergoyles droping bread crumbs and seed on the ground with the intention of feeding the devourers and developing a meaningful relationship with them.

Khrysyl · May 27, 2005, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindare Sunstriker

...
I dislike that someone can say 'you will fight ten monsters here' as it completely eliminates the question of tactical skill and in choosing what you fight.

More and more MMOs are doing this, and I'm liking it less and less in each. You may as well slap your customers in the face and say, 'Stop being creative and just do it the way we want you to!' Bah.

I agree with this. I feel sometimes that GW is to restrictive of player's creativity. Personally, I wouold like to be able to pull mobs if I want to. Maybe rather than have (as an example) 7 level 4 mobs that will all come at you at once no matter what you do, have 3 level 6 that can be pulled individually if you are careful.

Then, if I'm in a group with 3 warriors and a monk the warriors can just wade in and slaughter all 3 at once, but if I am soloing with 3 level 3 henchies I can pull one at a time and have a good chance at survival.

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burem

I fail to see how pulling is creative. The developers are actually encouraging players to think harder. How much thought goes into a fight with one puny mob? Add another 9 and things get interesting. Linking mobs isn't dumbing down the game; It's moving the right direction. On top of all that it's realistic that a sentient creature could ask its "friends" for help.

I think you're mistaking creativity for triviality.

I realise that in a game where most people PvP, it is going to be hard to explain why pulling is interesting and fun. But honestly, did no one who has posted here ever actually PLAY a pulling class anywhere else? That would explain this mind-boggling inability to 'get it'.

It isn't about you fighting one mob, you can choose to pull ten.

It is about pulling precisely how many you want and not one more than that.

And yes, sometimes, it IS about how to extract that one mob from a pack of thirty, when they all call one another for help (BAF) and there's X more ready to party mobs in the path between you and your group.

Something that is impossible more and more often, as developers decide what they want you to do is more important than what you want to do.

chpmmttn · May 27, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

pulling never really seemed realistic to me. If you are hanging out with a group of your friends and then one of them get's a rock thrown at them, will you just stand by idlely as they run off to see who did that?

and when that friend doesn't return and then someone else starts getting rocks thrown at them, you just stand there twiddling your thumbs?

the way it is handled in this game makes some sense. if you try to pull one target think of it as if they yell out in the party chat before attacking. just be glad that it doesn't (always) pull other groups also.

as for the devourers, I assume that you are attacking the area that they are buried under. maybe that is enough to trigger them. or maybe they are all included in the same group.

Khrysyl · May 27, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Aug, Burem, I think I see your points. This is not a game about "sneak up on a mob and magically pick him out of a group", but rather, "think about and plan your strategy so you have the right skills and use them in the right combination when you come across that almost overwhelmingly large group of foes", is that it?

Interesting!

Cindare Sunstriker · May 27, 2005, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chpmmttn

pulling never really seemed realistic to me. If you are hanging out with a group of your friends and then one of them get's a rock thrown at them, will you just stand by idlely as they run off to see who did that?

and when that friend doesn't return and then someone else starts getting rocks thrown at them, you just stand there twiddling your thumbs?

the way it is handled in this game makes some sense. if you try to pull one target think of it as if they yell out in the party chat before attacking. just be glad that it doesn't (always) pull other groups also.

as for the devourers, I assume that you are attacking the area that they are buried under. maybe that is enough to trigger them. or maybe they are all included in the same group.

Without doubt, the devourers in question are linked to the gargoyles.

As to the rest, if you (or a friend) get hit with a rock and when you turn to see who threw it, no one is there.... you either ignore it or you walk over to investigate. (Lure)

You may or may not have one or two of your buddies follow you, depending on whether or not they are as curious as you are (which depends largely on whether or not they got hit with a rock, or saw you get hit). (BAF)

The point being, this is a more realistic response than:

You or a friend get hit with a rock and you all automatially know precisely who threw it and where they are at the moment.

Silmor · May 27, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Pulling is an essential part of Guild Wars, just that you should regard each linked group as a seperate 'pulling entity'. Like a player group, a linked group will support eachother no matter how far one of their kind has wandered off.

Imagine four linked groups (usually distinguishable by the way they clump together every now and then) up ahead, and standing in aggro range of eachother. That means that if you engage one group with a melee character (pet, warrior, etc.), you run the risk of getting all four groups on you at once, which usually leads to a party wipe. This is where a good puller pulls one entire linked group away from the three others so the group can be dealt with in (relative) peace, and this is repeated for the remaining groups.

A good puller makes all the difference between life and death in many instances, so don't worry about pulling being dead in GW - it just works a little different here. It may not be fully realistic, but the concept of the game is Teams vs. Teams, your teamwork vs. their teamwork, and that concept starts at post-searing Ascalon.

-edit as a response to following post-
Epinephrine, if your monks/casters want to avoid getting your pulls on them, make sure you stand just outside of casting range from the puller at the moment he gets the monsters on him. The moment they reach him and notice a soft target (monk or other caster) within spell range, they will go for that instead. Keeping your distance is the key; I don't regard going for the softest target first as 'broken AI' since it's exactly what player teams do as well.

Epinephrine · May 27, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Unfortunately, the monster AI is wrong.

I don't mind the linked groups. I do mind having my buddies around the corner/over a hill, me going to pull, and the enemies charging by me to go for the healer who is still out of sight to them. Psychic monsters are annoying.

Khrysyl · May 27, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

chpmmtm,

I have to agree there, it always seemed unrealistic to be able to pull one mob from a group. Just a week ago I was thinking that as I soloed orcs in WoW. I attract the attention of one and get him to run at me while his friend 20 feet away completely ignores us both. Then I beat the snot out of one while the other, in plain sight, just stands around twiddling his thumbs. Hmmm.

The devourers though seem to be linked. I have stood in place while waiting for a gargoyle to walk into aggro range (look pull), then as soon as he does, the devourers 20 yards behind him unbury themselves and attack as well.